What Makes A Good Bookkeeper

In this candid and practical conversation, Kay and Crystal dive into one of the most misunderstood topics in small business: what actually makes a good bookkeeper.

From keeping your books accurate and up to date, to building strong client relationships, to spotting red flags before they become disasters the duo unpack the real traits that separate average bookkeepers from truly great ones.

They explore:

• Why “up to date” isn’t enough accuracy matters more than ever
• How communication styles (and even DiSC profiles) shape the bookkeeper–client relationship
• The blurred line between admin work vs bookkeeping and why mixing them can cost you
• The rise of AI, automation, and tools like Dext, Syft, and Xero’s auto‑reconciliation
• Why proactive bookkeepers save businesses and reactive ones cost them
• The role of BAS agents vs bookkeepers, and why business owners often misunderstand the difference
• Real stories of cashflow surprises, tax debts, and how the right bookkeeper can prevent them

Whether you’re a business owner trying to understand your numbers or a bookkeeper wanting to sharpen your craft, this episode is packed with relatable stories, practical insights, and the kind of straight-talking advice Kay and Crystal are known for.

shows at the beginning of each episode for 15 seconds

Connect with us:
Crystal Petzer - https://businessgrowthcoach.com.au/
Kay Godfrey - https://upupandaway.net.au/

If this episode hits home, share it with a business owner who needs to hear it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Okay. Well, Kay, um, thank you for all for joining and listening. Um, it's Kay and Crystal with Small Business Sorted Podcasts, and it's nice to be back again, isn't it, Kay? It's lovely to be back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

It's lovely to be back. It's been a little while. It's been a little while, but it's come around quick as well. It's come around very, very quickly. The time has absolutely flown.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

I know, and you've been busy with um your national.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

I've been busy with the Mazda MX5 Club of New South Wales. I know.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

So very busy with that one.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Yes, and we spent last week in the Hunter Valley. Oh, beautiful. 120 cars, 180 people. Wow. That's huge. Ridges Hotel, and we just drove around. Um, yeah, it was it was amazing. Loved it. Absolutely loved it. Wow. So how many cars were there altogether? So 120. Oh my gosh. And they have competitions for the best. They have different categories. They have show and shine, which is just you your car needs to look nice and clean and shiny. But they also have pride of ownership, where they actually look at your engine and all the bits and pieces. Now I I love my car, but I don't know anything about the um the motor. The motor, I'm afraid. I've seen the other members that they would be very disappointed in me. But yeah, so and you've just bought yourself a new BYD.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

I know, I don't think there's a BYD club yet. It's probably all trained anyway. They're not going to drive around the Hunter. Actually, they probably would drive around the Hunter. Yeah. No, it's fantastic. Um, yeah, I uh you know it's that electric hybrid car, so I guess in the current e econom economy, I should say. Um yeah, I just thought I'd get one and we can use it for work as well. But gee, it's beautiful to drive. It's nice to uh really it's impressive. It's like driving a car as well. It sort of feels really easy to drive. So yeah, I'm really happy with it to be honest. So it's only like a week old, so talk to me next month. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

So, what's our topic for today?

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Wow, we've got a very interesting topic today, and it's actually one that um I speak a lot about with people, and I do see a lot of different kinds of bookkeepers. So we thought we would chat today about what makes a good bookkeeper. And I think often, you know, one of the things that you often hear is, you know, are your books up to date or are they up to date or are they always behind? And I feel in today's world, um, one of my little pet things is that, you know, we we have our bank feeds going in, everything. So it should be, you should be able to have your books up to date, like every week, you know, like I don't think you need to wait a month anymore. So, and often business owners sort of fall behind or don't look at their numbers because nothing's reconciled. So I think what makes a good bookkeeper, I think there's some excellent bookkeepers out there. So yeah, I just and you're a bookkeeper too. I am a book.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

I'm still a bookkeeper. Yeah, so it'd be nice to hear it from your side too, I think. Yeah, um, there's no excuse for not having those books up to date. No excuse at all. Uh it's probab I wouldn't say it's laziness. Bookkeepers are probably very busy. They're very busy people and often deal with a lot of different clients. So they're trying to juggle a lot of different clients. But certainly the one of the most important things certainly for a business owner is your books need to be up to date. Yeah, not only do they need to be up to date, yeah, they need to be accurate. They do if they're not accurate, well you've got nothing to look at. Well, up to date just goes out of the window. Well, it's no point.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

You can't, yeah, there's no point, right? Then you then you do look at your bank, uh your bank account balance, don't you? Because that's the only thing you've got then, really. Yes. Do you see um from a bookkeeper's perspective, how how easy is it for business owners to actually get to know you and and see if that you're the right person to work? Is the relationship important to you as well? I know it's very important to business owners to have a good relationship with their bookkeeper. Is it important for you?

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Absolutely, certainly for me. I think one thing I've always prided myself on is the good relationships that I've had with my clients. The relationship is super important. Yeah. Um, you want to get to know them, you want to be talking to them as regularly as you can, um, which may only end up being once a month, a couple of times a month. A phone call, uh often a a coffee. And and it's also important, I feel, that you understand the client's business. Yes. It's they're not just numbers, it's not just figures on a piece of paper, which unfortunately I think a lot of bookkeepers um don't see beyond that. Again, because they're busy, um maybe don't have the interest, but don't have the time. It's a lot of people. Or maybe they don't understand that that industry potentially they may not understand the industry. So I always took pride in understanding the business, and that helps you to see any red flags that might um appear or show in those in those numbers. Whereas if you don't understand the business, then you miss those.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

And what do you what happens if the relationship isn't good or you don't gel with that person? How does that affect the bookkeeping, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Um, it's not good because you need to be able to communicate. You need to be able to ask questions and get answers. Yeah. Um, so that is it's good, it's important to have a good relationship. Yeah. You don't it doesn't have to be perfect. Now, I've said this to you before about me. I like to be liked. Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_00 6:05

You really like to be liked.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

I think it all comes from I like to be liked. Yes. Um, I've always liked my clients and I think they've always liked me. Yeah. And um, as I said, that's what I pride myself on, is is the relationship. And I probably become too friendly sometimes. Sometimes which makes it hard if there's something awkward or difficult that you have to discuss with them.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

But um now that I like to be liked if I go back to the disc profile, you know, the um which is like a behavior style sort of thing you could take and you kind of work out what kind of behaviors you have and you kind of have a preference. So I know your your um disc profiles, so I know you're a very high S and S people are really good team players, they love people, um, they they love doing um the same things over and over again. Um or they like routine. I think, yeah, no, but you like routine.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Routine, absolutely. I don't like surprises. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

And you know, give you a good to-do list and you love getting all those done. And I think that like to be liked is really um it's it's lovely. It's it's and a lot of us humans want to be liked, right? It's there's not too many of us that don't like to be liked. So um, and I think our customers like to be liked as well, right? So it's important for for them to feel like the bookkeeper likes them and is showing an interest in their business. I think one of the things I really um as a business owner, and I've been through I see a lot of different bookkeepers helping my clients, but I also see um I've had a lot of bookkeepers over the years as well, and probably the best ones that I've had, the best results I've got out of my books and understanding it and everything was having that good relationship. But I've had bad relationships too. And I think the thing where um and I know everybody gets busy, and I know sometimes business owners don't reply in a timely manner, you know, all that, but I think that that it's that communication. If I never hear from anybody ever, then I just don't think they care.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yeah. I think butting in, I'm sorry, but I think communication as well, it's good if you know you can call the business owner when you need to. Yes. And that they will be there for you, I guess, and that vice versa. That more more importantly, the business owner can call you when uh when if if they have a quick question, they can call. Yeah. It's not a case of I've got to make an appointment or call you know after five o'clock or before whatever. Yeah. But you can actually just pick up the phone and call. Yeah. Um, I actually had a pet call yesterday with with um a lady. Um, she obviously wanted to talk to me yesterday. So she did ask, you know, can I when are you available? And I said, well, you know, four o'clock. And um, yeah, she gave me a call and we did a zoom and we sorted out the problem. Yeah. Because that's what she wanted to do.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

She didn't want to wait until tomorrow or next week or you your your style is very um and I guess lots of different bookkeepers have different styles, I guess. Some like to do it on email and not be interrupted, and I guess, you know, depending on their workload and how many staff or if staff are doing it or not doing it, I guess. Um, but I guess the the that that having that conversation up front and working out how you like, because some people might just want a text message, you know, instead of a call. Um, working out what that style of communication is. And I know you're a very high response person and a quick responder. Um, and I'm like that too. So for me, having a bookkeeper that matches my style is important to me. Um, but if I was one of those people that just said, don't interrupt me, you know, um, then I think then that's a conversation to have. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

And the other thing is it's important um if you do have a business, if you have a bookkeeping business or any book business, you shouldn't actually though everyone will tell you you should not look at every email that comes in throughout the day. Yeah. You should not pick up every phone call that comes in because it doesn't help with productivity. So I've got to add that in. Yes. Um, but personally I just like I I tend to jump around a bit too from client to client. That's obviously also not always a good thing. But I do that because I deal with the important thing in each client's file or whatever. Something else I wanted to say about disc profile. Oh yes that you taught you taught me. I've obviously you get clients who respond, clients who don't respond, um clients who respond to met text messages, ty clients who respond to emails or phone calls. And I had one client who I couldn't he I couldn't get a response. Yeah. And you said he's a high D high C. That was it.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

And it he um They don't like people. Well, no, I think what they're very task-oriented and they're not they're they really don't they don't have a lot of empathy for people per se.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

But there was another guy who some people like detail. Yep, some people don't. Yes. So this guy didn't like detail. Yes. There was no point in telling it giving him all the details of a of an account or whatever, yeah. He wouldn't listen. Give him the top, you know, the high, the most important figures. Yeah. And he was he was there. Happy with that. And he ought to also liked being talked to, or not talked to. Um text messages were the best way to get through to him. Well, then I got a response. You worked it out. I was like, yeah, I worked it out, but only after you'd spoke to spoken to me and told me different people like different types and methods of different styles.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

And then you don't take it personally, right? Because you think if he's ignoring me, you know, is he a good client? Is he not a good client? Um, does he like me, you know, all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Then again, I've had one or two people who don't respond. Yeah. Don't respond. Don't respond. So what happened? They're not my clients anymore. Sorry. I got to say, it must be a frustrating stuff, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

And I think for business owners out there who might be listening, it's really, really hard for bookkeepers when they're trying to do the work for you and get your books up to date, you know, as they say, or your zero up-to-date or QuickBooks. Um, but they but they can't get the answer that they need from you. So if you do get a inquiry, you know, if they do ask for you to do something, just get it done quickly because that really helps your get your things. And I know it's a house you've got to go find that receipt or or look for, you know, what was that again? Or um, so that can be. The the thing, Kay, that I wanted to to ask, um, I know that when when I was doing the admin um side of that business, remember? The admin bookkeeping business, I found that a lot of clients misunderstood the difference between what a bookkeeper does and what an admin does. So quite often I think that line gets very blurred, and admin kind of can include bookkeeping, and bookkeeping can kind of include admin. How what what is a bookkeeper's role per se?

SPEAKER_01 13:33

A bookkeeper's role is looking after the numbers, reconciling the accounts, um producing the profit and loss statement, letting you know how well your business is doing. Um that's what the bookkeeper's job is. But checking on your accounts receivable, outstanding. What is accounts receivable again? Customers who owe you money. Yes. So checking on them, possibly sending reminders, but not necessarily. As a bookkeeper, I did not send reminders to clients. That was the client's responsibility and the admin's responsibility. But keeping an eye on it, that is definitely the bookkeeper's job. And the bills that you need to pay, keeping those accurate and up to date so you know how much you owe. That is also a bookkeeper's job. Sending out um sending out the invoices, the quotes, but admin. Admin. Admin. It's best to keep them separate because both are quite involved, quite uh detailed, and involve quite a lot of work. Yes. So if you mix them together, then something's going to fall by the wayside.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Either invoicing won't be done on time to the clients, or you your figures won't be up to date. It's very difficult to do the whole the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

I agree. And I think your the the other part of your bookkeeper is to make sure that your BASs get done every quarter or monthly, depending on what you do. Now with that new um payday super, yes, um, that's going to become a big thing that a bookkeeper can help you with, making sure your payroll is up to date. Yeah. Um, I love having a bookkeeper do the payroll. It kind of puts the a middle person between the business owner and the staff member. So if something isn't right, or we miss a a holiday day, or a or we miss a sick day, or we don't, you know, if there's a mistake, it's really easy to say, I'll get the bookkeeper to fix it. I I just like that sort of separation on that.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

And remember there's a determined a difference between a bookkeeper and a baz agent. Just that a baz a bookkeeper doesn't necessarily have to be a Baz agent.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

A Baz agent allows them to communicate with the ATO and to record or correct any GST on items you may have recorded. Um a bookkeeper can educate you about GST. They they can produce your books, your profit and loss balance sheet. They can bring the data up to a stage where the BAS agent can review and lodge your BAS. Or your data. But a bookkeeper who isn't a Baz agent cannot lodge the BAS and should not be advising you on that. On that.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

So, but most bookkeepers are BASS agents as well. I always recommend uh clients to look for a bookkeeper BASS agent because then it's all all in one, you know, one-stop shop type of thing. And then your accountant, of course, that's a whole separate thing. Your accountant then advises you on your on where your taxes are and can also advise you on your business and stuff, you know, like they can really see the structure of the business, how it's all going. But um, so I feel like there's a a really um a good role. And sometimes I find bookkeepers who try and do the admin for for businesses often don't it's it's it's really not their their wheel but their will be probably like wheelhouse.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

I feel likely they don't understand bookkeeping. I think they're probably an admin uh who don't, and you do need to have uh an understanding.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

And some do it very well and love it, but I think the I think it's really nice to have that separation because admin, which we'll to have another subject on this, another podcast on admin, but I feel that an admin person can do all those things that that the business owner does. So like can answer the phones, they can book the quotes in, they can schedule the um return calls to clients that have got queries, they can update all the you know the the merchandise and stock that you might have, they can, you know, um invoice, they can follow up on outstanding monies, they could follow up on any outstanding tenders or quotes or whatever, they can do feedbacks from your clients, they can talk to the staff and get the information back in. Um, you know, different businesses have lots of different admin in their business, and if business owners are wasting too much time on their admin, then that's where you need an admin, right? Yeah, but that doesn't mean it should be your bookkeeper. And I think sometimes we get that mixed up, and um so anyway, thanks for clarifying that, Kay. That's really, really good.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

So something else that I think is important um for a good bookkeeper is that they are, or a sign of a good bookkeeper is that they are kept up to date with the latest technology. And in today's world-changing. Technology, I'm talking about technology to do with bookkeeping, obviously. So any accounting software that's available, any apps that are available for such as Dex or um easy. So Dexte is what's that? Dex helps you to take photocopies or copies of your receipts and your bills. Import them into Xero, QuickBooks, or whichever software you does it. And it prev it means you do not have to manually enter anything. The data is read off those um pieces of paper and goes straight into your accounting software. And there's just more and more stuff software out there.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Yeah, like job management systems and CRMs and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

There's actually too many. Yeah. There's too many now. But you have to keep up to date with it because some of it is almost, and it is, doing the job of the bookkeeper and maybe even the admin. So you if you're not up to date with this stuff, then you're l you're losing out. The business owner's losing out because it's saving time. In most cases, it's helping with accuracy and it's saving time. And everybody wants to do that. Yeah. You need to keep up with the Joneses.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

How do you how do you keep up with the job? How do you find how do you keep up to date with that stuff? What do you need?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

I've done it in the past. I used to be part of the first class accounts franchise. Oh yes. And we had conferences, workshops, uh, webinars, and we were kept up to date with every possible uh new software. Yeah. And not just software, the comp the rules and regulations that in this day and age seem to be constantly changing, yeah. And they're not changing for the better.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

No.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Well, they may be in some respects for the better, but they're certainly not h helping or saving any time for bookkeepers, business owners. All they seem to be doing is putting extra work onto them. Nevertheless, you still have to keep up to date with them. Yes. Um, so the franchise used to keep me up to date with all that stuff. Plus, ABN, the Australian Bookkeepers Network. Oh, yes. I was a member of that, and they also keep you up to date with um software, compliance, rules, and regulations. They lobby the ATO if they think something's not right or something that's not helping or that we don't like.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

I think um it would just talking about software, and that's probably not a bad time to bring this up, but the AI that's now coming through for in zero, and I guess QuickBooks isn't far behind. Um I think QuickBooks was ahead of zero to be a good thing. Oh, would I? Okay. Um so I feel like there's a lot of that AI coming in, and I know the reporting, and there's different like SIFT, you know, who does those great reports and that. How you know, I feel is that I mean, bookkeepers need to keep up to date with that too, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

I mean, I told you that I'd forgotten about SIFT but I don't know why, because I was running reports yesterday on SIFT. Oh yeah. Um Zero bought SIFT reporting. And the software is actually free, the basic software free if you use Xero or QuickBooks or other s accounting software. And it's like reporting at the click of a switch button. You get all of your an AI's integrated into it too. So it'll say, well, your uh profit went down from this month to that month, and it was because of your wages or this. And it it it does all that for you. So you definitely need to keep up with this. As a bookkeeper, it just to be honest, it just saves me heaps of time.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

It's changing fast though, isn't it? I use that automatic reconciliation to zero for the last two months.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

I just thought I'll give it a go and see where you like that. I didn't think you liked that.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Uh I didn't, but you know what? I'm actually I'm actually really liking it because I can go back and check and just double check it. But it is, it's working really well.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

I use it, I like it. Yeah. Why do you want to go in and click on everything and say okay, okay. It's quite as quick as uh but as I say, QuickBooks has been doing that um for longer, I guess. Which and I always like that in quick QuickBooks.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Yeah. So when you when you've got um like like for me, I've got I've got a lot of business owners that perhaps there's a control thing, I guess. Um, and they've been doing, you know, when you start off your business, it might be a bit smaller, or you you want to be on top of all your, you know, what's happening. So you'll do a lot of your own bookkeeping and may have you know, right or wrong, you might be doing it really well and accurately, or you may not, you may have picked up some bad habits in there. Um, how I often feel like that's an area where if you had a good bookkeeper, having them do it and double checking what you're doing. So there's many roles that a bookkeeper could do that you could do it and they check it and do your best for you, or um, or you just do it or whatever. What what are your thoughts on that? So you must see a lot of different kinds of styles of people wanting you to do different kinds of bookkeeping.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Well, I do, I do now because as I've told you before, I'm no longer I don't do the books bookkeeping for it for people anymore. No, you're doing helping people who do it themselves, yeah. I am helping them. And I I actually enjoy that more. It's almost like letting AI shouldn't say that really. I'm likening I'm likening business owners to AI agents. But um I'm the che I check and verify and produce the reports and talk about the numbers. Um, not actually sitting there just crunching numbers. Yeah. Um but then again, there are other people who don't want to touch their zero at all. Yeah. They don't want to touch the file. Um, but that's fine. Whatever. That's fine, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Different courses for different folks, isn't it? I guess, or whatever that's saying was. Um I guess some of the um you know, some of the things business owners do feel is do you you know to understand their numbers and or do they just hope that they're right? I think a lot of people hope they're right, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Still in this still I don't know why, but but I think it's because they don't understand enough. So maybe bookkeepers need to be explaining things to the business owner a little bit more uh in a bit more depth than has previously been.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

And it's a bit like uh if if what you don't know, you don't know, you don't know. Um, but then you you do know when you suddenly you've got like a big bass. Yeah, like a tax yeah, tax debt, or a big bass, or your cash flow, you can't pay your staff, or um all that sort of stuff, and then you go, well, what's happening? Yeah, so I feel like um bookkeepers have a big role there just to to highlight the the the ups and the downs, and that's what makes a good bookkeeper too, is is having having that second set of eyes and just I guess educating you, but also just allowing you to know, hey, um, you know, things look a little tight with the cash flow coming up, we've got a lot of bills coming up. And certain months are definitely heavier than other months for sure, too, aren't they? So yes, um, I think that happens a lot. I there was a um, I guess what I just remember a client who we'd been working with for a long time and we were getting his figures right, right? So not we were trying to understand just how much profit he was making. So obviously getting the the uh the bookkeeper in and making sure he had a book, a bookkeeper and the books, but they were only getting done monthly. So then I asked him to go back and just say get them done weekly, reconcile, because we need to check everything weekly. And we wanted to, you know, we were checking on staff and hours and all that sort of stuff. Um, everything we were starting to make a profit, but he just never had the cash in the bank. So then I said to him, Can you go back and just check how much you owe the ATO or what? Because we we we did not understand why this and what ended up happening was there was a huge tax debt. I can't remember the exact, but it was like over a hundred thousand. He was not aware of it. Now I know that's an accountant thing, but the bookkeeper could have also highlighted to him he never heard from them. Yeah um, you know, I I know he probably didn't want to hear from them, he didn't think he needed to hear from them. So there's always a 50-50 flag. But they could have flagged it.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Well that's a case of going through the balance sheet, all your payables. Oh god, not the balance sheet. Yeah, the balance sheet. I'm sorry, Crystal, I know. I must admit there's probably not many people doing it. It's a hard one to understand. As a business only, you probably don't need to look at the balance sheet, but the bookkeeper needs to highlight any issues. Your debt will be on there, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Under GST or or P A Y G or whatever. Or um but your personal tax and if your company won't be there, but if you're sole trader, it will. Um your personal tax won't be on there. No, it won't be on there. So let it be your GST. So but anyway, well my and then we once we understood what that was, then we had to re-jig what the profits needed to be so that he could then pay that off. But that was just one example of how if we'd had a good bookkeeper and were tracking or or just knowing that we needed to track that, yeah, um, made such a big difference as well, you know. Um, and I guess the um, you know, if you if you were to know something was wrong financially, you then have a choice to make something you've got a choice to do something about it. But if you don't know, it's really hard to know what to do, right? Well you wouldn't do anything because you don't know. So I think that's sort of that's probably gonna be one of those key takeouts.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

I think I think something that doesn't spring to mind, but a good bookkeeper is proactive, not reactive. I think there's too many out there that might be reactive, i.e., whoops, there's not enough money in the bank account. Now what are we going to do? Proactive is I can see that based on what's coming in and what's going out, you're going to have a problem. So proactive, not reactive. So that's what that can save your business. I think. Um I think so too. Something we haven't talked about, and I didn't really want to talk about, so now I'm going to bring it up. Oh God. What is it? How much to pay a get pay bookkeeper. Oh, how much do you pay a bookkeeper? Jeez. My answer to that is always it's all about the value that they that they give to you. As we've discussed, there's people at this end of the spectrum and people who are not so good or bad, people who are much better, better, excellent. So you have to work out the value of that person to you.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

And um, and I think you know what it you know what I find too, is that we don't, as business owners, we don't always understand everything that you do. No. So you may spend four hours a week or five hours a week on their on their thing, and we get a bill for I don't know, three to three hundred dollars or whatever. Um, and then you go, what are they doing? And so you don't always f know the value. So do you think a bookkeeper could explain more? Do you think that helps? Or how do you help business owners understand the value that you're giving? Because sometimes it's not always visible to see that value. Yeah, they can explain what what that what they're doing. Um would they uh would the business owner understand what you're doing? Probably not.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

There's the dilemma, right? It's difficult I'm not gonna put a price on a bookkeeper. No, I just know that when I was not necessarily part of the well, part of the franchise and now and before I was part of the franchise and when I used to be a strategic bookkeeper with Jeannie Savage as well. Oh yeah. They always tell you to you should really work out how much how much time you're spending on on the clients and how much work exactly work out what what your price should be.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

I think I think as a as a I I'm a I'm a you know, we've we've used a saying before, poor man pays twice. And um that one. What was the other one?

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Oh no, pay monkeys, uh pay peanuts, get monkeys. That was your phrase. My phrase was pay pay peanuts, get monkeys.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yep, that's it. But I think what what we're saying there is that ultimately if you if you are so worried about you know how little you can you want to pay them. Yeah, it's like a good cleaner and a bad cleaner, you know. Um for the house. If you pay too little, you're gonna get little. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

I like the analogy. It's kind of it kind of helps it to sort of isn't it silly that it takes that to make it sink in? You know, how much you should pay. It's all about the value and it is about the value.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

How well they're doing the job. Exactly, how well they're doing. And and if you don't really understand, ask around. But I think you know when someone's doing a good job is that you they are they're doing all those communication things and giving you the reports and and not, you know, uh you feel like you got someone who's actually got your back, then that is worth that peace of mind. And what price do you put on that? You know, you can't. So I feel that if you paid, if you're too worried about how much you want to pay, then you pay you may not get what you are looking for. And then you can't blame the bookkeeper for that because you don't want to pay that money for it. So I feel it's like anything in life. If you want a good job done, sometimes that comes at a price, and like you have to you have to pay that. And for that peace of mind, or you doing it, what's your value of how much you pay yourself for you to be doing something you're probably not that good at, or you don't have the time to do well. Yeah, and so then that's gonna impact everything in your business because then you've got absolutely nothing to look at to make decisions on in the way of your finances and your figures, you know?

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Something that's sprung to mind that's not on any of our sheets here. None of them. Um outsourcing. Oh, outsourcing. That's a there'll be a lot of people listening who probably be thinking about or doing that.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

So having a bookkeeper in your business and you outsource it, say, overseas, and they do it on for you, but so my question to outsourcing, like you're outsourcing a bookkeeper anyway, but they may be in Australia, but you could outsource a bookkeeper, I guess, over there. That's what I was thinking. But then how do you you you'd then have to make sure your communication, all of the above that we've talked about, is in place, but even more strongly, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, I think I think the answer is it's okay to get someone who's just reconciling the numbers, maybe just reconciling the bank entries in zero. Any more than that outsourcing overseas becomes problematic. Yeah. Uh you really need someone over here uh overseeing it. A bookkeeper, the business owner themselves, somebody double checking it.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Or yeah, I know that How do I know though that my bookkeeper isn't using someone overseas to do my books?

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Well, they should tell you if you've got a contract with if you have a contract with your bookkeeper, which you should all have a contract with. It will be written in there, although it's usually often only a sentence that says you give us the right to, you know, use but ask them. I mean they I think I would like to know.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Of course you would. I uh you know, if I saw mistakes in my uh I I think you know when my pet hate is with a bookkeeper. Go on. You probably know what it is.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

I don't want to guess. I'm not sure to be honest. I can't guess.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Uh mistakes. Oh well, okay. Yes, especially if you fight your payroll. I can't stand. No, no, it's awful. Um I I get really you know what mistakes do, or they you they're either rushing. Yeah, and I know it's easy to fix it in bookkeeping, or they don't know. Yeah, or they have someone else doing it, right? And I it then that lowers my trust level, and then I go, then I've it takes me a while to build that trust up, and then I feel I've got to double check there, and then why am I paying someone if I've got to double check it? Um so, but I just feel that if you for bookkeepers' accuracy and doing it, you know, the right way and making sure that everything is in its right place, that adds to the value and the trust of the relationship as well, right? So um, and look, mistakes do happen and information does happen and it's very easy to fix. But I think the the it would be better if they saw it first and fixed it and let me know, yeah um, instead of me finding it and then having to go back the other way. That that that for me as well. So I think it's all about communication again, isn't it? And and knowing what you want. And some people may just want reconciliation or some people may just want payroll. There's no you could use a book bookkeeper in so many different ways, can't you? In that way. Yeah, yeah. So Yeah, so we almost, I think, just about covered everything that we wanted to. But outsourcing, can I just go back to that again? Um, I do think there is a role sometimes with that, depending on the size of your business. Um and you can get, you know, without knocking resourcing, you're outsourcing, sorry, outside. I'm not knocking outsourcing field you can get the right people, but it takes a long time to find those people and to get that right. And your processes and your systems internally have to be so damn good for that to work. Otherwise, you setting them up to fail, it's not their job to set that up for you.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

You have to have your operate standard operating procedures and everything written.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Everything it's got to be written down because that's all they find. They're very good at following what you want them to do. Um, and I feel that that it it and often the reason why they fail is because we don't have the right system in place or we don't give them the right information as well. Absolutely. And that probably goes for staff here in Australia too, you know. Yes, anyway. Anyway. Um just uh w what who was your best client and what did they do for you?

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Nobody really springs to mind, to be honest. Somebody called Crystal Petsy was pretty I was gonna say I've got to say that. But she was really tough. She was really tough. She had her eyes and ears everywhere. You couldn't make a mistake. You couldn't make a mistake. You couldn't make a mistake. I don't really know. I d I like I liked them all. I actually had a good relationship, I think, with every single client I've client I've had, and I have liked every client that I've had. Um and I think they've liked me. To finish off. I do think they like me. What else is I gonna say?

SPEAKER_00 38:29

So So um I guess what what is your takeout um for what makes a good bookkeeper?

SPEAKER_01 38:37

I think um accurate and up to date you can never, you know, go past. Yeah. So as we said, accurate and up-to-date um numbers numbers explained in plain English, which I think we touched on, but we didn't really um go into great detail. How if they understand how your business operates is a great help for both both sides. Yeah. They're they're unlikely to make mistakes if they understand what they're d dealing with. Yeah. You know, like a trade, you you sometimes get things things and you think, what's that? Yeah, you know, but if you know what the business is, you're more likely to know what that is. Um proactive, not reactive, as I've said before. And um the goal is clarity and control. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

And I think mine is definitely that um having that discussion up front, knowing what you want as a business owner, what you want them to do for you. And if you're just starting out, just start off with payroll or just start off with reconciling or just start off with bath. But I think build that relationship, build that trust up. And I feel that that having a good bookkeeper on your side, that you know everything is right, can just take away so much head space and worry and time. And if they are very um proactive and let you know that your business, you know, well, I had actually talking about this, I had a client that came in yesterday and their bookkeeper told them that they had this, they got a huge loss of I think it was a hundred thousand dollars from January to to date, right? And they go, why is that? What's going on? And um, they got a big fright about it, and uh so we went through it and we sort of had a look, but they never had their their bookkeeper doing their outstanding monies, and they had over a hundred and fifty thousand dollars owing in invoices, so there was a lot of the money. But I said to them, why don't you get them to do it? You you're not doing it, obviously, or you're not doing it well, so why don't you get them to do it? So there's lots of um things you could do, and they can really help you in your business in that way. But the fact you let them know was a really, really good thing too, because they weren't aware of it.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Oh awesome.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Um, thanks, Kay. I've enjoyed this conversation. We could probably talk a lot longer on it, but I think uh bookkeepers are important and um thank you for listening to Kay and Crystal and Small Business All.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Don't forget, good bookkeeping doesn't just track your business, it helps you take control of it. Whoa. That's good, isn't it? That's a good way to do it. Alright, with that, we'll say goodbye.